this morning, my question, who is the real chris christie? plus the players are changing while the game stays the same,

the fight over entitlements and three years since the devastating quake in haiti. a critique of the best of intentions, but first, is the only way to save the constitution to violate the constitution? good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. i'm going to take you back, way back, 1861, during the height of the civil war. president abraham lincoln made an unprecedented move which many even then considered it an overreach of executive authority, and the that year, lincoln declared martial law and issued the writs of habeas corpus and insisting that he needed to suspend the right to due process in order to put down the rebellion in the south. at the time, lincoln defended his constitutionally questionable action in a july 4th speech saying this, are all

of the laws but one to go unexecuted and the government, itself, go the pieces lest that one be violated? lincoln's claim was that the rebellion caused a concern for public safety that required the suspension, and furthermore, he claimed that the executive did in fact hold the constitutional authority to suspend habeas corpus. lincoln even argued that even if the interpretation was wrong and the powers play only with congress, he was still justified, because even if he did not, lest one law be violated, it was his overwhelmingly constitutional authority to preserve, protect and defend the constitution by keeping the union together. that perhaps convoluted argument is actually a strong claim to presidential authority in the united states constitution. perhaps above all else the presidential duty is to keep the government from going to pieces,

to do so, the president may even have to choose the least troubling option from a menu of unconstitutional choices, and this may be precisely the kind of constitutional interpretation that our current president is considering. a week away from his second inauguration, president obama is facing a series of roadblocks to going about the business of governing, from replacing outgoing cabinet members, to the ability to issue new debt, and the issue between the oval office and capitol hill has been proven intractable and how can he keep the government from going to pieces. two legal scholars may have a solution for the president particularly when it comes to the debt standoff. writing for the columbia law review, the authors write that in the debt ceiling deal context and given the balance of the practical stand prudential considerations, the least constitutional choice would be for the president to continue to issue debt in the amounts

authorized by the duly enacted budget of the united states. translation? go over the head of congress and raise the debt creeiling from t oval office, because it is an esoteric concern that has street level consequences burk i scons remains a matter of interpretation. think george w. bush, post 9/11 and bolt ststered by a fierce t of lawyers who e helped usher in the greatest debt in decades. and now it is not war powers or extraordinary rendition or interrogation techniques, but it is about the 14th amendment, because it prevents any questioning of the validity of the public debt of the united states so many say that debt, itself, is unconstitutional, because it gets in the way of the federal government honoring the basic financial commitments.

the president may be constitutionally obligated to ignore this debt ceiling fight, so if he follows the two scholars' lead and simply issues new bonds, congress be damned, he may be fulfilling the constitutional duty and that would be of course at the expense of the pesky separation of powers. oops. because that old document also stipulates that the congress and only the document has the power of the purse. article i of the constitution state s th states that the congress and not the president has the power to borrow money into credit of the united states, but when you face a congress who refuses to act on its power, how does the president keep the government from going to pieces? the context of the realities of contemporary governing, maybe the con ttext should be, what would lincoln do? with me is dorian and michael

crowley, senior correspondent and deputy chief of "time" magazine and christine beltran, associate professor of new york university, and mark alexander, a professor of law at seton hall. i want to start with you, mark, because you are there in a law school to teach the interpretation of the constitution to people who are going to practice law, and is this a reasonable way to frame the tradeoff that the p president has a menu of constitutional options, and he has to pick the one to keep the government from going to pieces. >> yes, he has a menu, and he has to make sure that the country goes forward and he is chosen to lead the country. we don't know what is the final answer of what is unconstitutional, until there is a declaration from the supreme court. but the president has to do what needs the be done to get the job done. and president lincoln was using

habeas to act now, and see what goes forward and the same for the president now, but as you said, there is real life consequence, because it is a big esoteric conversation, and one that we have ever everyday with the law student, but the point is that the president has to go forward and has to act. >> and are people asking him to do this? senate democrats have said to him, listen, what we have to do is to in fact ignore the republicans here. let's take a look at what the democrats have said. they are actually saying, listen, mr. president, this is the time when we hope that you will continue to ignore claims that agreeing to a rise in the debt ceiling will agree to the con kegs,ey -- concessio

concession, and saying, do it, and we have to do it. >> and they are frustrated that the republicans are held hostage here and made demands and that they might win some of the demands. i suspect that the president is worried that, you know, there's a question here about the legality of what he does and the powers as described by the constitution, and then the global and the financial markets which are not particularly intere interested in the constitutional law and theory, so i think that to some degree the white house must calculate, if we act in a sort of controversial way, right, it is not controversial if congress raises the debt limit, because that is what everybody assumes will happen, but if we take another route, and there are many options including this trillion dollar coin that could be minted, but what is best for the markets? because the goal is to not crash the economy. so there is a second argument and pragmatic real world argument happening along the constitutional debate that has to be kept in mind when you ask what the white house has to do

to make the decisions. >> so maybe there are four issues, the legality, and can he as a matter of constitutional matter go over the head of ko s congress, and are are we a functioning democracy to make good on the payment, and the third and the fourth is the politics of it and how will he be held accountable or the party be held accountable, but also, if he extends executive power, it is one of the jeannes that once you let it out of the bottle, it is hard to put it back in, and i love the trillion dollar coin, and i thoroughly love it. i want the trillion dollar coin and that sounds great, but once you start extending the executive power, you extend it for the next guy and the next and the next. >> well, yes and no. in some ways if you remember that franklin roosevelt tried to extend the executive authority and he did in lots of ways burk he got pushback from the supreme

court and the republican party that for even truman and the successor, there was an expanded reach for the executive office, but i want to go back to some older political science about the presidential power. there is one from richard newstat of the politics of persuasion and the bully pulpit, which the president has not used. he can go offcongress and directly to the markets and the american public and make a case of the use of the unconstitutional and the seemingly unconstitutional authority, and he has not done that yet, and that is one of the options of the perceived power. >> and it feels to me, like, christina, not only could he potentially go, but that one of the arguments in the back pocket is that we are not actually having a deficit crisis. much of the deficit is already addressed, and so in other words, sort of when we look at the trend lines that paul krueger has been showing us the trend lines are showing that the deficit is disappearing slowly but surely, and most of it on

spending cuts and is there a need, because when you see how much has been done and as you look at the graph, and how much has been done on spending cuts, do we indeed need to have this fight? >> well, do we need to. and initially we saw obama claiming what was an overreach, but we have recent history in this in terms of the immigration reform. when he did deferred action he said he did not want to go around congress, but the realization of popular support of this issue, and congress was not going to move, and he didn't get any blame from the public and the public was pleased that he took real action on this. i don't believe there is a lot of political blowback from this. he is doing something for the election, and if he has to circumvent congress, that is what he will do. >> the trillion dollar platinum coin is sort of deferred action and a creative way of the within the letter and if not the spirit of the law, but the president can have. >> and i love the coin.

i think that we could have a commemorative plate, and go with it. it would be great. >> and a hip-hop song about it. that would be good. all of that. stay right there and what the president can do about guns is next. ♪ i've got the power when you have diabetes... your doctor will say get smart about your weight. i tried weight loss plans... but their shakes aren't always made for people with diabetes. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes.

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the president is going to act. there are executive a action that can be take n and we havent decided what that is yet, but we are compiling it all with with the help of the attorney jenle ral and all of the rest of the cabinet members a as well as legislative action that we believe was required. >> that was vice president biden on wednesday hint hing at a possible outcome from the work of the task force, and now for

those of you who are either hoping or fear ing thing that t possible executive order will be a complete overhaul of the second amendment, i will tell you that it won't be. our nation and the laws are path dependent as is in a nation where we have been is part of how we end up where we are. i know. listen. le policies simply cannot be made on a blank slate, perhaps, perhaps we would be much safer if there were such a thing as a right to bear arms, but there is. and whatever gun control policy is passed, it is going to be based on the pre-existing second amendment. so i want to ask you about that, mark, because on the one hand, we could make a case that we could go ahead and holding the country together and recognizing we are in a new place, and the president says that we are coming for these class of guns and just going to come get them, but in the country, that would in fact going to people's homes and taking the guns, and the thing that they say coming to

get my guns would have to happen? >> well, it is a problem. the entire bill of rights, and that is the kind of othing that is clearly which something that we as a nation don't feel co comfortable with, the government coming into our home for lots of reasons and privacy reasons, but the reality is that the second amendment does protect a certain right, but there is no right in the constitution that is absolute, and no way to argue that 200-plus years ago people thought that what happened in newtown is protect ed ed by the second amendment, and no way to say that what is an absolute unfettered right to have a gun in any kind of situation, and those who argue have to realize that the path we have been on and where we have been on today is certainly noting? that anybody would have imagined and no one should, and this is not a path to reflect the society we are living in today. >> and it is worth reading the second amendment and it is well to be remind ed. a well regulated militia for the right of the people to bear arms

shall not be infringed and that sort of last piece of it, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed feels absolute. feels like we have a right to bear arms and it shall not be infringed. >> it shall not be infringed, but it is a time when we didn't have a standing army, navy, air force, marine, and so we are looking at a different society and a country founded by individuals gathered together to rise up against a king, and this is not the same society. so infringing the right, there is a conduct and the supreme court has said it is an individual right, but again, every single right in the constitution has limits, and the limits are extraordinary important, and no absolute right. so when the nra or whoever is becomes absolutist about it, it is completely wrong. >> so no absolute right whether it is the freedom of the speech which has limits orrer the right to bear arms and there is also no absolute power when it comes to the context of the preside y

presidency, so if we are on a pathway of how armed we are are as a nation, we are on a pathway in terms of the presidential power, so what can the president do? what can the vice president do in this moment on the issue of guns? >> well, it is really interesting, because we can see the ways in which the public is hungry for something to happen. and gun control is an incredibly complicated issue, so this is a moment where executive action would make people feel like we are doing something here. some of the things that they have talked about in terms of asking the d.o.j. to prosecute the gun laws that we have or actually appoint someone to atf and these are the concrete things that the president can do that the public says at least we are taking action on this question. >> i wonder why we are more reluctant to provide power for the presidency than governors and so much of the conversation is state rights versus the federal right, but isn't the historic nervousness about a king? >> well, that is a great

question in terms of the difference of governors and the leeway we give them and presidents. one of the things that go back to an erl ler poiarlier point oe bully pulpit, and we saw it on the issue of marriage equality by the president and it shifted attitudes. we are at a similar moment where unlike any governor single-handedly, the president can use the power of persuasion to lead us in a conversation about gun control and the second amendment and not shift everybody, but shift to the center and he can do this effectively in this moment, and this is a chance that no other president in modern times has had. >> is the president's power then fundamentally this newstadian pow e of persuasion to get the american people on his side. >> ell with, more of it than that, but i do believe that based on a little bit of what i know of the conversation happening in the white house

about how to do this, there is a sense of however satisfying for people who want to see quick action on gun control and see the president exercise maximal power and whatever measures he might take unilaterally, there is real weariness about the perception that obama is coming to get your guns, and it is the nra may not be as formidable as it is in the self-image and the people who are, you know, the power may be overstated as a lot of people are rg a u yoog, however, they do have real power and the white house feels like the politics of this are not clear cut and not a hands down winning issue not maer the how they play it, so therefore, essential of getting something done in the view of the president and the advisers s so make sure that you are moving the public and not obama and biden diving into the congress, and punching, but squeezing them from the outside to move the public opinion to educate

people, and there are a lot of people who don't believe that gun control will solve this problem, and they believe it is a part of crazy people, and that is why you will see mental health, and biden is coming into this with video games, and not just single focus of guns, and so this is a big chance to do it. and that is all about the bully pulpit. >> and the magazine for whom doreen and i write, they asked a piece of what should the president do in the second term, and so we took a look at what he had done in 2012 with the executive orders. he has given executive orders to improve mental health for veterans, and acquisition of wind farm projects, and then home la homeland ecosystem restoration project, and improving access to mental health services for veterans. so we can see him with r

relatively popular thing. it is hard to be against the restoration of the gulf coast or homeland security or hurricane sandy. >> but at this moment, dorian is right that the bully pulpit is interesting, because there is a big sweet spot of agreement in terms of the cultural change among gun owners, and there are debates where the gun owners say, i want to hunt, but i don't need an automatic weapon. and so there is a lot of the gun givebacks and in a cultural moment, and one thing that obama can do in articulating the larger sweet spot is to bring in other voices who agree with him who are gun owners and have a debate now to say that having a gup in your house is like having a bomb in your house, and it is dangerous and you can make public safety issues and there are a lot of responsible nra members, and he could use the bully pulpit because it could be particularly useful. >> we will take a whole hour to talk about guns on the show tomorrow, but we did look at one

stat of how many people own gins, and this is sort of it critically to the point that you are making. you can't have this conversation without convincing gun owners, because americans are highly armed and talking about 300 million guns in a population of 312 million people. and so that is not one gun per person, and we get that, but it is a lot of guns relative to the population. when we come back, we are going to ask another question about power, and we know that he gets to pick them, but congress has to confirm them. the president's cabinet conundrum is next. look, if you have copd like me, you know it can be hard to breathe, and how that feels. copd includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema. spiriva helps control my copd symptoms by keeping my airways open for 24 hours. plus, it reduces copd flare-ups. spiriva is the only once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that does both.

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nerdland, if you will. please take out your pocket constitution and follow along. article ii, section two and paragraph two states the presidential have power by and with the consent with the senate

to make treaties, provided two-thirds of the senators present concur and he shall nominate and by and with the consent of the senate shall appoint ambassadors and other public ministers and consults and other officers of the supreme court and other officers whose appointments are not herein provided for. the key words are advice and consent. as far as the constitution is concerned, the president only needs to seek the advice and the consent of the senate for his appointments. so is can he pick the cabinets or not? i don't know why it is a conversation, but it is, because it feels that the president, enfor all of the questions of the power, he may not have the power to pick his own cabinet. >> well, it is completely true, and a completely lack of respect for this president at a certain level, and interesting constant pushback, and it is interesting to think of the president overreaching this the context of the of the president who has subject of ongoing fights is

interesting. >> that is a nice way to have it. on one hand i'm having the angst for the president to extend the debt ceiling and go ahead and have the coin minted, but on the other hand worrying that it is an overreach, but on the other hand, he may not be able to choose his own secretary of defense. what do we think about the hagel decision, and is that presemtively taking on the politics, because he know he won't have the drama or go in to have the hagel fight? >> well, i don't believe he wants any of the fights. i am among those who are surprised that he went with hagel because they could see controversy there. and secretary gates, the democrats like to have a republican defense secretaries, and they feel like it is good optics to have a republican in national security post, and secretary gates was well liked by the republicans even though he was to the left of the center of the bush era on national security establishment. >> which is not very far left.

>> still very much center right at least, and hagel did break with the republican colleagues and i think that the white house had no know that there was sort of resentment, and bad blood there. so i'm surprised, but i don't think that he wants a fight. i see the way he abandoned susan rice not the deal with it and they don't want to burn political capital on the bandwidth, but hagel will be okay, and there is going to be a lot of hue and cry, but i don't believe he will be abandoned. >> and what about susan rice to have this fight with hagel and brought up a whole set of concerns here whether or not the president's second ed administration is going to be less diverse than the first administration. we heard carney response sponding to the the claims earlier this week. >> well, janet napolitano is the secretary of homeland security, an cabinet level and the

ambassador is susan rice, and this president has made two appointments to the supreme court, and both of them women. his commitment to dwsh. >> do you believe it is an unfair sgharnlg. >> well, the record speaks for itself. >> it is a good point and bad point, because when you can list the women on your hand, there are not enough women, like -- >> get a binder. >> i have a whole handful of women, and that alone makes you go, no, no, wrong answer, like, right, don't start naming them, because there is indication of few enough of them that you know all of their name, right? >> and the thing is that the president has done the same appointments in terms of men and women ratios of president clinton and ahead of what last president bush did. and it is important to think about elena kagan and sonia

sotomayor, and they will serve for a lifetime. and the president has been pushing to have the best advisers around him, and the best supreme court justices he can find, and he has been doing a great job, but what we have to face is that the republican obstructionism is getting him in the way of doing his job as best as possible. we have to put the party politics behind the work of the party. >> and with we have on one hand the angst, but the fact is in washington because of the dependence, many of the people with the greatest qualifications and who are deeply embedded are white men, because at one point, that is all that was available. >> a great point. i'm more worried about where the appointments stand ide lologicay than the demographic background, and going back to the path dependency, that can explain what is going on here, so to use another presidential scholar

pete skronic, they don't just walk in with blank slate, but come in on somebody else's terrain. so he comes in with right wing ideological rule essentially, and so his appointments are in that ideological left, and barely left and more center. so that is the concern that this is the second term and how can you push further to the left with the ideologically and not just black or women or latino. >> and you assume that the left comes wrapped in a certain body and not a central question that way. >> this is a interesting question around the diversity politics, and you have talked about that, right. that we want the diversity in the political e legitimacy and everybody has a stake and a stake in playing a leadership role, but the e question of feminist politics or racial

politics is a different question. even questions around obama, and a man of color and a literal man, and he has done more deportations in one term than george w. bush did in two. and i think that the reaction will change with reform, but when it comes to the pollices the of race and diversity, it is about pressuring people and the political and the george w. bush administration taught us serious lessons around diverse bodies and progressive politics, and that is what we are trying to figure out now. >> absolutely. >> when we come back, we want to do a lightning round about the bully pulpit, and what are the things that we believe that the president can use the bully pulpit to do. ♪ everybody wants the rule the world ♪ cute. but don't you have any apps on your phone that can make your life easier? who do you think i am, quicken loans? at quicken loans, we'll provide you with myql mobile. this amazingly useful app allows you

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use it for? >> well, if he feels strong about climate change and feels it is a threat, it is time for people to understand why that is and remind them to refresh the case and the evidence, but you have to -- and we talked about the gun control and having to happen from the bottom up and to squeeze congress and make it not seem like obama is diving in, and climate change and e global warming is the same thing, and he has to make a persuasive case that it is real and i understand why we might have to take action. >> it is good because as a world leader, he can't address a entire global power, but the bully pulpit is a place he could. >> well, if he tries to use his own power and strongarm it, he won't get anything through congress. public opinion can be moved now that the economy is improving. the bad economy is the enemy of measures to address climate

change, because people say that economy is the top priority, and we can't after tord the regul e regulate. >> well, poverty, poverty, poverty. >> and we are having a travis cranked up here. >> well, he can discredit neopoliticals that is not working for most americans, but we have to help the least of the, and we have to really focus on those who are working, and can't get by and still living under the poverty line and working on poverty, but discrediting the liberal economics. >> we will talk about this, because the war on poverty is one of the most effective set of policy intervention, and we could do it again. >> and yes, dorian is right, and to build on the national commitment to help those who can be vulnerable, and taking care of the children and taking care of our seniors and that is going to go on to the entitlements debate and lit go on and the great presidents like lyndon n

johnson and roosevelt, and the pulpit is right for that, to stand up for the seniors. >> yes, the bully pulpit. >> and making a case for the progressive income tax, and we have to make an argument for the distributetive policies that the people who make the most pay the most, but we need a national debate about that, because until we do, we cannot address these o other issues. and marriage equality and he came out to say, that i support this, but with the bill coming out in illinois, it would be a chance to come out to say, i believe in this, and the more he can take on, they are going to attack him anyway and they have an assumptional congress, to make the arguments for the vision of a second term. i can't hurt. >> and whether he plays it safe or bold, thet attacks come. >> yes. >> and there is something about the bold moves. i appreciate all of that. up next, the real chris christie and what you don't know about

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get the blood tests. change your number. turn it up. androgel 1.62%. long after the images of hurricane sandy's devastation vanished are from the television screens, one visible and vocal reminder has made it impossible to ignore the ongoing struggles of sandy's victims. new jersey governor chris christie, and his advocacy for new jersey's rev cori evident has extended the 15 minutes of national fame far beyond the speech at the republican national convention and in fact, the popularity may have made him think that he can stretch the 15 minutes all of the way to the white house in 2016, but let's not get too hasty, because in the open letter this week, i'd like to remind the governor of a few things that may make him and american voters think twice. dear governor kris tchristie, ie

melissa. you are having a moment. when you puts a side partisan politics aside to praise president obama, and to the kick in the pants of john boehner, it seems that you are the voice of america's frustration with washington, and as a resident of a city who knows all too well to rebuild in the wake of catastrophe i know that the people of new jersey are grateful to have you as a champion and you can e tell by the 73% approval rating and even more impressive as governor of a blue state, you get 62% approval of the democrats and 70% of women and 69% among people of color which makes you a shoe in for re-election this year, and no doubt all of the love has you feeling like it is all aboard the christie train and next stop the white house. but i need you the pump the brake, because your ability to lead people through the

aftermath of a disaster is important, but it does not qualify you to be president of the united states. just ask rudy giuliani, and the "time" magazine line had it right, you are the master of disaster, but disaster struck long before hurricane sandy came ashore and hope you do a better job of presiding over the state's storm recovery than presiding over new jersey's economic recovery, because new jersey's economic performance was 47th in the nation in 2011 and right now the unemployment rate is 9.6%, surpassing the national rate by almost 2%. it seems, governor, that the residents are still waiting on the so-called jersey comeback that you claim ed had already begun, and so much for the reputation for telling the hard truths or telling the truth at all when you ran for governor, because you promised not the cut pensions, property tax rebates or education spending. when you became governor you promptly cut all three, and oh, the matter of those other cuts

that you proposed, the tax cut for new jersey's wealthiest residents, and he even went so far as to veto not once, not twice, but three times a tax increase on millionaires. given the policy preference ss o toer the wealthy, any wonder that it took a natural disaster and some convincing from president obama before you could get some reciprocation in your love for bruce springsteen? you know his every lyric and you also know that the boss, and i heen the real boss in his song celebrates the working class, the same folks who suffer when you refuse to raise the state's minimum wage or when you cut the earned income tax credit for low income residents or cut 7.4 million sdlfrom reproductivity services, an thd thanks to you,e residents of new jersey have six fewer clinics to visit. and that is fewer breast cancer exams and fewer cancer screen

ings and fewer lives to be saved with preventative care, and by all means, enjoy the moment, and you have earned it, but thanks to the policy record, you have also earned what is coming with you on 2016 and i have a feeling that america's voters are going to give you what you exactly deserve. sincerely, melissa. i need you. i feel so alone. but you're not alone. i knew you'd come. like i could stay away. you know i can't do this without you. you'll never have to. you're always there for me. shh! i'll get you a rental car. i could also use an umbrella. fall in love with progressive's claims service.

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if you happen to be watching the morning news at 7:00 a.m. wednesday, it seemed that governor christie was e everywhere, it is because he was. than pox tks to the magic of television, he could appear on four different networks and t n thanks to this, four of the appearances at the same time. and if that was not enough chris christie for you, he graces the cover of this week's "time" magazine, and the writer is with us today. and michael crowley, the piece

is nice and a handshake and a pat-pat for the governor and what did you come away thinking of what the governor had done and ak kccomplished? >> well, we are "time" magazine and at the moment, we are capturing time, and he is extremely pop youer lar and give the man his due, but as i explain in the story, the question is how long can this last and how real is it? christie, like it or not, politics is about theater and christie nailed the role thee yat -- theatritheatrically, and nailed it. and he has also driven out cory booker who will run for governor. and they have a lot of budget tax issues to deal with in new jersey, and christie is not where the state's voters are on

those issues, so can he or will he come back to earth? democrats in the state think he will and the glow will wear off, and really, it is hard to point to what did he do substantively and result he got that someone else would not have? a lot of it is theater and i have talked for so long that i have forgotten the question. >> well, michael, that is a good point, and your point that he did the number one thing that any politician must do, and that is that he kept himself from having a challenger, and he is going to run as governor, and, it is almost impossible that he would have to beat himself at this point to lose, and yet, dorian, i wonder if it is more of an indication of the problems of the democratic party as a national party than it is the capacity of christie. how in the world do democrats not have a democrat to run for governor of new jersey. it is one thing to not have a governor of louisiana to run as a democrat, but new jersey? >> and in a state where more

democrats approve of christie than republicans or independe s independents. it is very, very interesting what is happening. it is a lack of a farm team. in 2004 howard dean had the 50-state strategy and build up the party, and what happened to th that? where has it been? there is another interesting thing about christie and i think about this a lot, would americans be willing to elect a fat president, just to be frank? and this is what we know. five technically obese presidents in history, and the last one was taft in -- e he left office in 1913. and would americans actually vote for christie? in some ways i think that probably when you consider that 63% of adult americans are obese under our how we measure, that and on the other hand, i'm not sure that, you know, if there was a woman and we were having this conversation that it would be a whole different story, but it is interesting and he presents a very interesting

persona and in terms of the physical embodiment, a challenge to contemporary american politic, and that is interesting. >> you will get into trouble about that comment, but it is not completely irrelevant if you are talking about the theater and what he does is to create a theatrical sense, and i'm a big guy from jersey coming in on you, and it is not clear if big guy here is like the big blustery personality or the kind of the big self, and whether or not that translates well in a national environment. >> right. i think that also to bring back to the other question, and bring back to my state, back to new jersey where he is the governor. >> and seton hall where you teach, and you guys educated him. >> and seton hall law school, and the best law school in the country, absolutely, but in the state, when you talk about the bench of democrats the reality is that we do have great folks out there who would like to be governor. and right now, we have a governor who is pop youer lat the moment, but when we go out to remind people everyday that this is the guy who thinks that

raising the minimum wage from $7.50 to $8.50 is too much, and governor who believes that he should be cutting back and in the letter, perfect, cutting back in women's health care and cut, cutting, and saying ing that we can't have taxes on millionaires when people are suffering. when we have unemployment way above the national rate, and there is a record that he has that is absolutely antithetical to what we believe in this state, and harsh against the working families and against same-sex marriage, and games what the democratic party believes in, and what we in the tex next ten months will do to get him out of office. >> who else aside from cory booker? >> well, there is barbara considering it and the senate majority leader sweeney, and dick cody, the former senate president, and other people out there considering it, but one

strong candidate this there already and she is pushing and building a great operation, and i don't know who else will jump this in, but we have have to me democrats to compete against christie. >> so no more calling it. >> and i will be pushing everyday for a democrat to succeed, and the election is ten months away, even though he is very popular today. >> and the looming safety net of the battle, and we have talked about chris christie and the shredding of the safety net, and we are looking at the possibility of that happening on the national stage. and also, the third anniversary of the hurricane in haiti, and why is it worse? [ male announcer ] this is bob, a regular guy with an irregular heartbeat. the usual, bob? not today. [ male announcer ] bob has afib: atrial fibrillation not caused by a heart valve problem,

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a long way from home... as an american express cardmember you can expect some help. but what you might not expect, is you can get all this with a prepaid card. spends like cash. feels like membership. starts with arthritis pain and a choice. take tylenol or take aleve, the #1 recommended pain reliever by orthopedic doctors. just two aleve can keep pain away all day. back to the news. mommy's having a french fry. yes she is, yes she is. [ bop ] [ male announcer ] could've had a v8. 100% vegetable juice, with three of your daily vegetable servings in every little bottle. welcome back, i'm melissa harris-perry. while we narrowly averted the

so-called fiscal cliff it may soon feel like we are stuck in a fiscal re-run as we wrap our heads around the next set of economic complexities that we are facing, debt ceiling and need for revenue and spending reform and spending cuts, and while we agree that changes must be made, we differ on what needs to change. but let's be clear what is at stake, because entitlements and social insurance have been a long tradition in america. in 1945, franklin d. roosevelt signed the social security act, and before that point, elderly americans did not have the money to support themselves, and only 3% were protected by state welfare pensions prior to 1935. the amounts benefit was 65 cent s a day. at the time when the country was in the throes of the great depression that social security act was groundbreaking as it set up a contributory system to provide economic protection for

the elderly going forward and yet it did not take care of everything. in 30 years later in 1963, 56% of people 65 and older had hospital insurance and that left americans vulnerable if a crisis struck. medicare was enacted in 1965 after decades of debate and lack of political will for a federal health insurance program for the elderly, and the growth of the program has not kept pace with contribution contributions, and why medicare provided for more than 49 seniors last year, keeping the program solvent is a big issue. but are these fed cal expenditures really what is driving the deficit? according to former labor secretary robert reich, the answer is no. quote, he says, they are temporary. if anything, america's safety nets have been too small, and shot through with holes, and that is why the number of percentage of american in poverty has increased dramatically including 22% of our children. so at a time when people are pushing for cuts in social programs we must pause to show that the entitlements addressed

in the realities are as well as the economic future. back at the table, dorian ward, and fellow at the roosevelt institute, michael crowley deputy correspondent for "time" magazine, and christine brawn, associate professor at nyu, and also law professor at seton hall law school where chris christie was educated and i will tease you about that forever. the fact is that mitch mcconnell has step ped in and will be a part of the conversation and it is not boehner, and they are putting entitlements back on the table. is this the right thing for us to be doing? >> no, but it is part of a 30-year campaign to repeal the new deal policies by the republican party. >> i thought you would say repeal the 20th century. >> yes, repeal the 20th century, and that is what they want to do and it is framed mostly a manufactured debate.

it is framed as we must do something, because of doom, and you know the doom coming before us. i think that this is a question of political will and choices, and it is not something objectively that we will run out of money. if we wanted to find the money to keep them solvent, we would do it. if we wanted to go the war tomorrow, we would. if we wanted to make sure that the elderly were not the most vulnerable like they were in the first two centuries, we would. >> and mark, looking at the recent deficit reduction and cuts, most of them have come from programs and only 28% has been about revenue increases, getting more money this there, and 72% coming from cutting programs and now once again in the conversation of cutting medicare and socio security. >> and the problem is exactly what dorian said, if you look back and say, what did george bush do, w, he started the war and we can all talk about why it

was all wrong, but the bush tax cuts and somehow the republicans at that time is not claiming a big problem, and they don't care at that moment, because it is a matter of priorities, and we fight and need to make sure that we understand that the fight as president obama very successfully pointed out to the american people that we need to find ways that we take care of in the context of social security take care of the seniors. sometimes that means that the wealthiest americans are going to have to pay more in taxes, and we have to consider what the promises are to the seniors and what are the promises to the men and women who have built this country before us that we can make sure that they are going to live the rest of their lives with dignity, and if that means that you have to raise taxes to make it happen, that is the choice that we as a country will go back to showing that picture in 1935. we are committed to that and we can't roll past the 20th century. >> yes, christine, it is part of the ideological commitment, but it is also incredibly effective policy since the institution of

the social security insurance, since the institution of medica medicare, the percentage of e elderly people living in poverty has declined dramatically full stop. >> right. >> and the he elderly are no lor disproportionately poor. >> and one thing that obama needs to do is to politicize this debate to talk about the income distribution and how it has transformed what old age is now in the united states, and now we have a crisis of children in poverty and that needs to be the issue. >> in part, because there is no social security or medicare for young people. >> right. we have had a distributetive problem here and it can't become a generational fight between the young and the old, and that is increasingly interesting, because we have a growing youth population and aging population and so there are dynamics he has to negotiate, but other issue is that we have to think about

where we are going to go in the future and after that fight over the fiscal cliff, one of the issues of po s of politics is t people are saying, we taxed the rich and done there. so he has to keep pushing on the bloated military and the welfare, and part of the argument, we gave you that, we gave you tax breaks for the rich, and taxing the rich now sh, and so now it is all about entitlements and he has to shift the debate thein the coming yea or he is going to be in trouble around this question, i think. >> how much of the social security discussion about it being in financial trouble is manufactured versus in fact, that social security is in trouble? we do know that there is a very easy tax base solution, and all you have to do is the raise the tax on the percentager or the amount that is paid and right now, it is $130,000 income pays and you pay the social security income insurance, and you raise it and we will be solvent into the foree seeable future and

people see it as a tax increase, and not a problem, but keep it here and are we in a crisis, because we are 20 years solvent, right? >> the crisis element is the xraj rated and people talk about entitlements threatening to the country, but it is not. you can tinker around the margins in the way that you just described for instance and keep it solvent for a long time. there's only so much that we talk about the projections of the 20-plus years into the future, and little, and relatively small changes in annual gross domestic product in the country will determine tremendously what the fate of the programs are, so you don't have to e feel like you have a lockdown for 50 year, and you can make some short term fixes, and important thing to remember in this debate, and it is a confounding thing is that the public broadly speaking cutting

spending say yes, and social security more than anything, they say, do not touch it. so one reason why the budget debate in washington is so crazy and alice in wonderlandy is that there is a sense that people have to acknowledge that the public thinks that we need to cut spending and in some vague way government is so big, but in all of the particulars they don't want to do i. they don't want to cut the pentagon or social security or medicare. so the final point i would make on that is that the president is on strong ground if he is defending social security as a strong ground, the public is saying not to touch it, but there is a sense to cut something and what is going to happen most often is cuts to people who are nmost vulnerable and don't have a voice in washington. >> and the one most difficult to cut is the one because it is not a vested program, because one of the solutions that we hear it to is okay, just a means tested program for poor seenerer yos,

but we know politically as soon as you strip the middle-class folks of it, you have taken all of the political juice out of it, and the key is to make sure that it is a non-means tested program. >> and it is not the only conservatives say, well, it should be individual responsibility to save for the retirement and social security does not preclude you from ta doing, but it provides a basic minimum and people might have a pension if you are lucky, and not so much anymore and you kin vest in the 401(k) as well, but it is not taking away the choice. >> well, choose to be rich. choose to be a wealthy old person. >> not too long ago in the presidential debates when al gore talked about putting social security in a lock box, and that is the kconsensus that we had a surplus and we could easily protect social security for the future, and we are not that far away from 2000 and we could figure it out if we had the political will. >> and this is the story that you have dealt with the marginal

difference s th differences that the best safety net for social security and medicare is, itself, economic growth. >> right. economic growth can help so much and a big argument about which direction to go, but the reality is that we have to grow the country, and the country has been growing slowly and steadily, and that is important. but throughout this moving up and down, we have to make sure that there is a commitment to the seniors and your point, christina, is so important, because this is why the seniors live a different life than 80 years ago when it starred. that is again focussing on the children. you have to have that same kind of commitment, and these things make us great as a nation, and the politics when we talk about mitch mcconnell who focused on the last four years to make sure barack obama did not get elected, he has proven to put the party interests ahead of national interests, and so can the president push him to put

the national interests ahead of everything else. >> and i want to show you one more graph as we go out b tow make the point on pure policy, what a difference it makes when we look at the poverty rates by age from 1959 to 2010 we will see a dramatic decline in the years of the war on poverty for everybody, but it is going to stay low for the 65 and older and starts to tick up for young people. we know that the green line there is the 65 and older, and it drops dramatically after the institution of social security and then war on poverty and medicare and older people are much less likely to be in poverty than children and that s is the difference of the green and the blue line and time to talk about that. when we come back, we will talk about the question of health care, and are we trying to solve a problem that does not exist?

if restorming social security is a battle changes to social security might be an all out war. despite the push for some for a complete overhaul, a recent report by the department of health and human services has medicare rising at historic lows and it reports that while rates are low, seniors are getting more benefits, and according to the report, what is helping to keep the costs low? i love the answer to this one, obama care. so the if costs are low and the se seniors are ereceiving more benefits what exactly is the problem that we are trying to fix here? i mean, i just love this report, because as wonderful as medicare is, one of the things that it did do is to increase the health care costs in the country, and part of the residual external externality is that we had rising health care costs and so part of obama care as a policy

to come in to adjust that by reducing the payments made on the basis of medicare, which of course got pilloried and attacked, but what it is not doing is to decrease the ben fitz of sebsh -- benefits that seeper yo senior seniors get, and bring the costs down. are we up for a fight? >> yes. this is going to make an argument that this is a government policy working. let it work, and give it time to play it out, and rare than the panic over entitlements which is an ideological effort to cutback on the programs. >> christine, that is fair. i am willing to say that perhaps president obama's affordable health care law as a matter of law in three or four or ten years will not work. and i am completely willing to i sashgs i don't know the future and perhaps it is a failure, but how could we possibly know at h

this moment, and when all of the zefd is towards it controlling costs, and expanding coverage, it does seem that maybe we can work on the em pyrrhics s dr empiricals. >> and how do you eng kaducate citizenry that it takes time. when people run for election, they say, we will fix this now, and the realization that now is seven years and given the temporality of politics and we don't do it well, so we may creating panic when we don't have a pawnic panic to panic f >> and one of the realizations of the obama first term is to make a determination as the first domestic policy agenda item is something long term and something that would not be found to work when it stands for re-election. >> that is me as a policy director the president in first

campaign and through '07 and '08 and talking about the commitment to make the big change, and you do not have the meeting day of otomorrow, and there are immediate incremental dates, but it is a big picture desire to move it forward. the president has a complete commitment to, and we are seeing the results in medicare and as we mo forward and the implementation moves forward, we will see how it ultimately helps all of the americans whether you have had insurance before or not, and helps all of us to reduce the costs and availability, but it was a commitment in the long term for the country back in '07 and '08 that this is what we must do as a country. and the ability to make a positive change in the office of president. >> on the solvency question, i want to point out four parts of medicare and i want to go through the first two, part a and part b. part a is the hospital insurance and portion paid for by the social security act and helps to pay for the inpatient hospital care, and nursing care, and

hospice and other services. and then the b which is the second piece paid for by the treasury fund, and helps to pay doctor fees and outpatient visits, et cetera, so two very different things. we have the medical piece and the hospital piece, but often the argument made about medicare is that the problem is the el r elderly use too many of the hospital ones, because, it is the wrong sort of insurance p l poll, and you are ensuring people who are most like lie to use the most catastrophic aspects of it, and that is not what you will see when you look at the solvency of medicare, and the elderly are healthy and given any previous elderly population, because implementation of part b which allows them to see a doctor means they won't be hospitalized in the same way. >> that is right. we will have to pay for the health care costs of the elderly regardless of any plap.

so what is the most effective way to do that? and to give people insurance is a much more cost effective way than to keep people paying to go to the emergency room without insurance. it is helpful to remind people to pay for entitlements to medicare and this is a life and death issue, and we have to ask the question how many more people will die, 4 million? 5 million? if we increase the age to 67 or cut the funding? people will die in this country without this access to medicare. so it is helpful to remind viewers that this is a serious issue that even the politicians in both parties don't convey to the american public. >> and that is also a good point, and i would say that you talk about the debt side, but it is life and death issue, and how do we live and how do we die? it is a fundamental question of going back into history how to live better and we know that the lives are better when we have

access to health care and that is not something that should depend upon the amount of money you make as a salary. >> it can have an economic contracting fact, because the kids who have any means at all will do their best to provide the care for the parents if in fact, they are elderly and that comes out of the households of the 30 and 40 and 50-year-olds to pay for the 0-year-old80-yead that money comes from the parentersb and not using it to buy a new car or do the renovations, and put the kids in school, and so that is the point, if we want to spend the money, we want to spend it in the most efficient way, because it is coming out of individual household budgets which contracts the economy, becauseless to spend. >> that is one of the less appreciated points of obama care. part of the point of it is to control cost, and that is largely forgotten to the people, and it mandated insurance and

closer to individual insurance, and it digitizing medical records and institute a program through data mining and all of the things with the rich databases now, and figure out which treatments are most effective and which are wasteful and which are redundant and it is a step. it won't solve the problem, but the constraint of costs is an encouraging sign, but there is some opinion that it has the do with the economy slowing down, so let's see, that i think that the jury is still out, but it takes an early step towards a system that takes advantage of information technology among other thing, and trying to figure out what is the best way to spend money and treatments. and that is a key part of it, and nobody talks about this part of the bill. >> i love that obama care is basically the nate silver of health care reform. in there data mining. thank you, michael crowley and christina beltran and mark alex

san deshgs and dorian is comingk back, because three years after the disaster that stunned the world, is it possible that the situation has gotten worse? we are talking haiti. [ mom ] 3 days into school break and they're already bored. hmm, we need a new game. ♪ that'll save the day. ♪ so will bounty select-a-size. it's the smaller powerful sheet. the only one with trap + lock technology. look! one select-a-size sheet of bounty is 50% more absorbent than a full size sheet of the leading ordinary brand. use less. with the small but powerful picker upper, bounty select-a-size. nothing. are you stealing our daughter's school supplies and taking them to work? no, i was just looking for my stapler and my... this thing. i save money by using fedex ground and buy my own supplies. that's a great idea. i'm going to go...

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the earth shook and the skies fell in haiti three years ago today. 16 miles west of the capital port-au-prince. and measuring 7.0 in magnitude on the richter scale and timing out 30 seconds which is all it took to effect 3.2 million people, and equal to little more than the people of chicago in port-au-prince alone. according to the haitian government, 220,000 people were killed from the quake, and more than 300,000 people were injured and though it may seem like a low estimate, more than 97,000 houses were destroyed and 188,000 were damaged just in port-au-prince. a all of this devastation hit a country which absolutely could not afford it.

55% of haitians were living on less than $1.25 a day before the earthquake. $666 was the per capital annual income. and 50% half of haiti was 18 years or youngerment the international community responded quickly, and what we are learning now is that some of the help may have contributed to the problem. here is what i mean. the total damages in haiti were estimated 7.8 mi$7.8 million bo terms of physical and economic losses. since december 2012, $13.34 billion in humanitarian and ethquake recovery have been planned for the earthquake response through 2020, be but slightly less than that half, 42% has been actually disbursed to help the haitian survivors. but money does not fix

everything, and neither does help on the ground. 560 ngos, nongovernment al organizations are working in haiti. immediately after the disaster, it is reported that only 1% of the nshgo donor funds for s a s assistance were channeled to the government while just 1% of the money donated for reconstruction was spent. and adding to the troubles, 580,000 cases of cholera reporting from july of 2012 stemming from the outbreak just ten months after the wake and the epidemic resulted in 7,400 deaths and all of that after the quake, after the help was pouring in. even though 26% of haitians have access to improved sanitation and double the figures of a year ago, according to a new united nations report, but still, it is only 26%. one of the next guests is among

those who believe that the united nations, itself, is to blame for the coll holera epide and the ngos despite the intentions is adding to it. jonath jonathan kat, the only journalist surviving from haiti is going to join us. when was e something made your jaw drop? campbell's has 24 new soups that will make it drop over, and over again. ♪ from jammin' jerk chicken, to creamy gouda bisque. see what's new from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. [ female announcer ] he could be the one. soulmate. husband. loving father to your children. but first you've got to get him to say, "hello." new crest 3d white arctic fresh toothpaste.

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and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest.

he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. the first word in correspondent jonathan cats' riveting new book about the world's response to haiti three years ago was outgoing secretary of state hillary clinton saying, why haiti? clinton asked shortly after a 7.0 earthquake becomes what catts called the most deadliest national di ssaster. he writes about the inherent understanding of the real needs. people of haiti needed a way to filter and purify water, but instead, he writes that the u.s.

military distributing 2.6 million bottles of water and including 120,000 gallons of deluxe fiji water bottled 8,000 miles away, and you can still find the containers in the great dams of debris blocking canals when it rains. joining me is dorian ward, and haitian founder pierre pierre, and also the director of the earth institute in haiti and the foreign press haiti correspondent jonathan katz, how the big truck came by and left a big disaster. >> and i spent the weekend, and the weekend for me is monday and tuesday, reading your book, because in part, i remain compelled to the images that we saw after haiti, but also as a new or leanian in or leanian

this the disaster and the attempt to rebuild and i kept think of the connection of the fragility of the space, itself, and then of the state. so it is both the buildings fall, and such a fragile government state there before the earthquake as well. >> yes, obviously, three years ago today. it is very somber day for everybody in haiti and everybody who was there and loves the country. but it is also a very frustrating day, because there was so much hope, there was such big promises made that things would get better and not just that things would get back to the level they were before the earthquake struck, but that the country would be better off than it had been before, and the sad truth is that were another earthquake were to happen today in the same spot on the same fault, it would be the same story all over again. >> gar i r i wonder about this idea of making it better -- gary, i wonder about this idea of making it better, and the

salvation of haiti and the connection to new orleans as well, the notion that we must go in to save this space -- that framework troubles me. >> well, haiti is a country everyone knows was least capable of withstanding such is destruction, and it did. the support coming in overwhelmed the country. i think that the government in place at the time or even today just didn't have the infrastructure in place to really funnel the aid that came in and what to do with it. i agree with you wholeheartedly with jonathan's assertion, because there was so much hope. one of the things that i kept thinking back to was that i have known tatiana for 15 or 20 years now, and she always used to say that what haiti needs is a big bulldozer and i said, finally, she got the bulldozer, and what is going to happen now? >> and of course, it is not a bulldozer in the sense that it comes down, and in fact, it

still must be bulldozed if that is what we mean, but you can't clear a slate, right, and the disaster happens in the context of the of the government that certainly has its own problems of corruption, but also had been fundamentally undermined by other western governments, really since independence, since the slavery rebellion that brings independence to haiti. >> at the end of the day, a 10-day-old government, because the prime minister had just come into office, and i want to talk about the pledge offers of the ngos and when the government sits down with the donors to find out where is the moneys? it is monies not spent before that was put inside of the figures that you see. so, haiti averages about 18% disbursement rates. so when you see a figure say

$3.8 billion disbursed, it does not mean it has been spent, but it has been given, a check has been put out, but you have a whole infrastructure that you have to put in place. you to hire it. there is a whole hiring process that you have to put in place, and that takes a year, a year and a half for most organization, and they were giving contracts out to organizations that knew nothing of haiti and based on the proposals we will do something along with the reconstruction, but then when what hits them is where are the needs? >> and the checks given often to the ngos instead of the government so you have a parallel state, and the ngo state existing in haiti and some of which may have had great knowledge and understanding of the country and some of which had very little understanding even if they have a great big heart, and given the problems that the government had, is it reasonable to send the money through the ngos instead of

sending it through the government system, itself? >> when you have an ngo state as a second type of government, it is much, much accountable. who holds them accountable? there are levers to hold the governments accountable and why not help the government build the capacity to do the fundamental functions that the people of haiti need. instead, we funnel the money over here, and we have no accountability for where all of the resources went. >> and jonathan, speaking of where the resources went, when we look at the images of haiti right now, three years later, and granted, three years is not a long time given how bad it s was, but these are images from this week, and this is not three-year-old images, but what is the lesson to take from the outpouring of hope and support and money that nonetheless seems to lead to so little? >> well, as you said, this earthquake happened in a very specific context and the way that aid was done after the earthquake is the same way that aid had been done for decades before, and not just aid, but

larger policies and briefly one example brought up is food policy in which heavily subsidized u.s. grain and especially rice comes in and floods the haitian market, and undercuts the farms and puts farmers out of business which creates hunger and that is in part the relationship of haiti and the world bank and haiti and the united states, and other multilateral institutions who sign on over the decades. so what we are looking at is really is -- the reason it is not surprising that things have not gotten that much better, because in order for things to have gotten better, the underlying circumstances that would have made the earthquake so destructive had to change. even though the rhetoric started to change after the earthquake and even in the mouth of hillary clinton for instance in the donors conference in 2010 she talked about not going around the government anymore and supporting it directly, but so many people invested this the status quo, and whether it is congress people who want to keep

money in the united states and send it to their districts, and who are lobbied by an industry on k-street that represents the so-called beltway bandits and the large ngos that depend on u.s. government largess. >> i want to talk about ngo help that does not help, and also the u.n. and cholera when i come back. ♪ if this is all i have ♪ redemption songs ♪ redemption songs the usual, bob? not today. [ male announcer ] bob has afib: atrial fibrillation not caused by a heart valve problem, a condition that puts him at greater risk for a stroke. [ gps ] turn left. i don't think so. [ male announcer ] for years, bob took warfarin, and made a monthly trip to the clinic to get his blood tested. but not anymore. bob's doctor recommended a different option: once-a-day xarelto®. xarelto® is the first and only once-a-day prescription blood thinner for patients with afib

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we are back and discussing the continuing aftermath of the haitian earthquake three years ago. we have talked a little bit about this ngo versus the haitian government and tell me a little bit about why there is a dual system. >> well, the system went back from when papaduck was president, and it was felt he was counter productive to the

government of haiti, and in a way of working with the usaid and other ngos in the country to give direct aid to the people and not to help the government really misuse the funds. that sounds like a good idea, and every haitian at the time supported this, because 90% of us did not support papaduck, but over the years, it has evolved to a dual government and when you see that save the children for instance is getting $20 billion to do the work, then they have to work collaborately with save the children and therefore they will do everything in their power to make sure that save the children does not succeed, because in some ways it emasculating the government and they have no skin in the game. and that is what is happening so when the earthquake hit, instead of the government, what we had was ngos were being formed every

moment, and they were getting money to go to haiti to do the work and hence the mess we today. >> yes, and this is real. it is not that it could have been done better, but it is real social issues. >> this is larger symptom of the dysfunctional dysfunctionalty. it grew into a massive business itself, and the haitian view is it is disingenuous, and third world country and underdeveloped country and 1800s and 17th century, that you are going to visit. it is the only thing that probably right now that we can track is the growth in disaster tourism in haiti. you have an aid system where haitians say, you know, the foreigner has the technology, has the science, has the knowledge and they know we are

underdeveloped and the whole political system is underdeveloped and you are disingenuous in that you know what you need to do. >> and so -- i'm just imagining that i'm at home and i'm watching this show right now, and i gave my $20 or my $50, because i felt in my heart such a sense of connection and now you are on tv telling me three years later that my money did harm instead of good, because what i don't want to do is to then discourage the idea of outpouring of support from ordinary people in the context of dis is ter. >> guarantee you if this segment goes up on line and comments, somebody will come in with a comment that says that your guests don't get it, and the haitians stole the money, and why don't we talk about how corrupt this government is and the reality is that for better or for worse and mostly worse, the way that aid and development and the way that foreign transfer of money is done, almost none of that money

touches or gets within sniffing distance of the haitian government or the malian government or whoever you are talking about. >> or the haitian organizations themselves. it never trickles down to the local organizations and not even the neighborhood org eizations in which they exist. >> and not the private enterprise. the very few private enterprise s that benefitted from the relief contracts were essentially run by people with dual citizen from the united states and doing things like waste collection that couldn't be done anywhere but haiti or that would have some ultimate benefit to the u.s. i mean, the thing is that the so little of the money between zero and 1%, depending upon the trend that you are talking about went to the haitian government in the first place. and if they had stolen every single penny, it wouldn't have made that big of a difference. >> it is interesting, because the time is never enough, but i want to, before we go, i want to mention the cholera issue, because it is the disaster after the disaster, and we do not know

for certain, but we have every reason to believe it is connected to the u.n. peacekeeping forces and the choices of the disposal of waste on an island that had not, itself, experienced cholera or in a long time -- >> never. never been a recorded outbreak before. >> and very little natural resistance and tell us one moment about that. >> it is as close to certainty as science gets. if there is some other way that the identical strain to cholera in nepal traveled 9,000 miles to rural haiti and ended up to the base home to u.n. soldiers from nepal, it will be one of the great miracles of all time, and unfortunately one of the great miracles of the all time give ten behavior of two and a half year later after the earthquake is if the u.n. opened themselves up to be accountable and their own accountability instead of trying to change the subject. >> the numbers that you put up

in number of cases, most health workers would say that mask the reality. haiti is full of rivers and you have to cross in most of your personal needs are met in rivers and the mountaintops where international aid workers are not going to go to the mountaintops and cross these rivers so that the numbers that actually of much far greater than what is being monitored and they are not being monitored very well. >> and ultimately brings us back to the question of accountability and account foshlter the ngos and accountability for the u.n. this this case. more in a moment, but first, it is time for a preview with "weekends with alex witt." >> interesting conversation there, melissa. democrats are attempting to take a move to prevent a looming problem at the urging of president obama. and a researcher will comment who participated in those talks.

and a new fracking movie called "promised land" starring matt damon and why the industry may not his. in our office politics white house correspondent peter alexander talks about life on the romney campaign trail and shares some behind the scenes including the campaign's reaction to mitt romney on election night. up next, she is feeding her people and saving lives against all the odds. our foot soldier of the week when we come back. oh this is soft. this is so so soft. hey hun, remember you only need a few sheets. hmph! [ female announcer ] charmin ultra soft is so soft you'll have to remind your family they can use less. ♪ charmin ultra soft is made with extra cushions that are soft and more absorbent. plus you can use four times less. hope you saved some for me. mhmm! you and the kids. we all go. why not enjoy the go with charmin ultra soft.

as we've been discussing, the country of haiti faced devastating destruction from a massive earthquake three years ago. but their problems did not begin with that earthquake. maria is 36 years old and mother of three children. she comes from the valley known as the country's bread basket, where most of the rice in haiti

is grown. in the late 90s marie grew troubled with a problem in her community. women were very involved in the rice production process. but as they sought to develop viable businesses loans were hard to come by. they turned on loan sharks taking on rates with as high as 25% interest or even higher risk. the punishment for failure to make payments? the women could be arrested, have their land seized, even lose their homes in 1998 marie along with a group of neighborhood women formed an organization to make available credit at fair rates. the women pooled their own money together and sought out microfinance lending organizations. though they procure loans from partner organizations, this is a group by hatian women for hatian women. the women decide how the money they borrow is used, what types of products are grown, where their goods will be sold and how goods will be priced. more importantly, they decide how the money earned is spent.

when the earthquake hit in 2010, marie lost ten members of her own family. her region was flooded with survivors from port-au-prince moving back home. demand for the food her organization provided soared. rather than give up under ever more daunting circumstances, marie did even more. her organization continued its work, and she personally provided housing for survivors who had lost everything. now marie's impact is growing. oxfam a international organization of 17 organizations who fights poverty around the world has become a microlending partner. it lends its expertise on producing better rice yields and loans. approximately 80 members of marie's community have received loans from oxfam. the song you're hearing now is sung by marie and her fellow farmers. the words they are singing translate to "women, we are

reads. th -- reads. you /* /- -- reeds. for providing hope in the face of absolute destruction and providing the very food that helped sustain a struggling nation, marie melissa robere is out foot soldier of the week. that is our show for the week. thanks to my panel. i'll see you tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. we are going to be looking at the issue of guns. join us. in, missouri, come back from a devastating tornado. man: and now we're helping the east coast recover from hurricane sandy. we're a leading global insurance company, based right here in america. we've repaid every dollar america lent us. everything, plus a profit of more than $22 billion. for the american people.

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